Is this gouging????????

[fire observer]

Today my friend went to renew the insurance on her home. She walked into the insurance company's office expecting to pay maybe another $200 more than last year. Surprise!!!!! Not a small $200 increase, but a whopping 3x the amount that she paid last year.

She does not live in the areas immediately affected by the fire. She was not evacuated. She was not even on an alert.

I guess that is one of the consequences of living in a town that has been held hostage by a raging inferno, that we all have experienced these past weeks.

[Visitor]

Is that gouging? Waht else could it be. But welcome to the insurance game. Business insurance, espesially 3rd party liability rates ahve skyrocketed since last year. The insurance companies have taken a bath in their investment income over the past couple of years and underwriters are starting to pay out for 911.

But guess what? What companies have posted record profits in the past quarter?

Insurance companies.

[Why the fire happened]

Hey folks, I really do mean to wake any and all of you out of quiet slumber..........

This fire was warned about, measures could have been in place to minimize collateral damage should a fire ever have gotten out of control...and were not..INTENTIONALLY


Bankers and Insurance companies own the controlling wealth of the planet, theyre stong arms are International Engineering firms..projects where the huge public monies are spent.

Insurance stood the most to lose by not responding to preventative measures..you'd think???

Whip out the calculator......total payout on this fire's damge vs total increase in fire premiums accross the board in K-Town

Ya all been hooped, sorry...... Cities are Feudal Heriachys desingned not to make your life esier, but to create an in-viroment that you can live and be taxed in...or so as it is presently structured.
It does not have to be that way, it just is and has been for a period of history. It could be changed overnight once an awareness tipping point is reached.. there are other ways including collective insurance for geographical locals. This model provides all the encouragement for preventative medicine, keeps cash flow local, and has the option to pay returns to subscribers...

[Airfun]

Gouging? Absolutely!!!!! My renewal of Sep 15 was denied,I live in Heffley Creek, the denial wasn't because of the fires, but because the broker no longer had a contract with Lloyds of London - so now what? I was expecting to get insurance with some company that I wouldn't touch in a normal time, and I'd have to take it. I was very pleasantly surprised to be taken on by a company that offered a slightly better policy than the last - at a slightly smaller premium!

I did ask about experience with this company, they have had some claims due to the fires, no dificulties, no complaints.

It should be next year that the actuarial stuff comes into play and the rates go up - and they will. One thing about the complaining about insurance companies that many forget. Many average peasants have some type of investments - mutual funds, perhaps even a pension, even Canada Pension plan invests somewhere! Where is the safe bet - insurance and banks - the investors cry for better return, so the companies have to give it. If that means gouging, that's their part in the vicious circle

For those getting gouged and refused now news reports say BCAA has set records for new policies, in my case Capri found insurance with family Insurance.

Good luck!

[An actual insurance broker]

Guest-Visitor said:

But guess what? What companies have posted record profits in the past quarter?

Insurance companies.

Posted record profits? What world have you been living in?

Get your facts straight. Insurance companies haven't been posting "record profits" for years. Check your sources before you spout off on something you don't know anything about, pal. Even underwriters at the famed Lloyd's of London have been dancing with bankruptcy. There are plenty of stories - factual ones, I'll add -- talking about Lloyd's slipholders (the ultimate underwriters in that company are individuals) who have had centuries of family fortune evaporate from under them due to the record volume of loss settlements during the 1990s.

Insurance companies are international companies, meaning that something that happens in Quebec - oh say, something like an ICE STORM) - or in Manitoba - oh say, like a FLOOD) - affects you in BC. Furthermore, insurers protect themselves via companies called reinsurance companies, which are even bigger corporations. Reinsurance companies ultimately foot the bill for disasters worldwide, Sept.11 being no exception. When their costs go up, it's passed down to the insurers, who pass it on down to the consumer proportionately based on the specific loss experiences and histories accorded to specific industries and risk classifications.

There's no evil conspiracy here, people. A flood in Europe inevitably ripples down to a premium increase for a homeowner in little ol' Kelowna.

Anyone who doubts me can easily view the annual reports (which are publicly available thanks to Canada's Superintendant of Insurance) of any company you wish to check into. Record profits, I disagree.

But if you'd rather believe differently, go right ahead. Better yet, don't buy insurance. People like you are a pain in the ass for honest brokers anyway.

[scared of an insurance broker]

Ok m8, we believe you. Now can you post where you work so I can avoid your office when it comes time for me to renew next year? You seem a bit hostile.

[An actual insurance broker]

I am hostile. Add frustrated, stressed, tired, and angry to that list, too.

This is a stressful time for everyone, not just the people who lost a home.

And I'm also bloody sick of working 15 hour days during the past three weeks trying to appease the multitude of clients I'm desperately trying to help only to come home to read moronic, unsubstantiated, ingratiating posts like all of yours.

I'll tell you where I work, people. I work in EVERY insurance brokerage in this town. Trust me, every broker I know feels the same way I do.

[tucker]

To the insurance fellow. I understand that your tired I would be also. However how do you think some of these people feel??
In Barriere, the people are being told that there is much larger claims that need to be settled before theirs. Well we know where those claims are, don't we???
Just because a few of those calims are worth 1/2 amillion, shouldn't mean the 50,000 ones shouldn't be paid off. These were the first fire losses. If they can't be settled how long is it going to take to settle some of the larger ones in Kelowna?

[tucker]

I forgot to say that your insurance companies that pay out damages, are sure there to collect the monies, and most people will probaly never ever claim a cent!

[Another Insurance Analyst]

The central principle of insurance is that the losses of the few are borne by the resources of the many. It's been like that for 5000 years, since the first known insurance policy which was written around the year 3000 B.C.

According to a 2001 report by the superintendant of insurance, for every $1.00 collected in last two years by most private Canadian-based insurers, approximately $1.07 has been paid out in losses. This ratio doesn't even address the reality of expenses associated with adjusting claims.

The reality is that without extremely careful and sometimes even harsh underwriting, a fortunate return on investments, and a healthy dose of good luck, most insurers would be out of business.

Of course, why should you bother worrying about all that...these are just a bunch of facts. I'd hate for things like that to get in the way of you yelling about how badly you've been victimized. What a nasty, inconvenient nuisance the truth can be.

Go ahead, though...spew your venom and direct it at insurers, brokers and adjusters if it makes you feel better. We realize that you're emotional and that we make easy targets. We'll just keep on trying to be there for you in the best way possible under catastrophic circumstances.

I'm sure, though, that you all will somehow find a way to ignore the fact that you're a bunch of complete hypocrites when the time comes for you to trot the bank and cash the pretty little cheques you received to help compensate you for this disaster.

Me, I've got to get back to work.

[Dennis Prouse]

I understand the frustration of the industry folks who have spoken on this thread. (Their facts, BTW, are spot on regarding the lack of profitability in the industry in recent years, and the principles of insurance.) We at Insurance Bureau of Canada have also been working incredibly long, frustrating hours, working to solve individual insurance difficulties with very little in the way of thanks in return.

I have personally arranged for continued insurance coverage for many people whose policies were about to expire with companies who had moved out of BC. I am proud to say that many of our member companies stepped up and took on those risks when they were under no legal obligation to do so. How much credit have we gotten for that? Basically none. I consider myself to be a pretty cheery, upbeat person, and as a former minor and junior hockey referee I can take an awful lot of abuse. I must admit, however, it is all wearing on me as well.

For whatever reason, people want to believe the worst regarding their insurance company. Because of this, every urban myth and unsubstantiated story out there gets regarded as the gospel, and we are given no opportunity to give a balancing perspective. When I read the above person describing himself as "frustrated", I just said, "Amen, brother."

What is lost in all of this is that the people working in the local insurance community are just that, local people. They also pay their taxes, raise their kids, and coach Little League in the Kelowna area. This is their community too, and they feel a deep commitment to doing their job well and helping people get back on their feet again. I think they are doing a fabulous job.

This industry has already paid out over $200 million in claims due to the 2003 wildfire season in BC. We acted quickly and decisively to help the people in need immediately after the fires -- brokers and adjusters were right in the evacuation centres, and we had representatives on the ground right away.

We're not asking for a parade -- save that for the firefighters who risked their lives to save the homes of so many. What we are asking for is a little bit of respect, some common sense, and perhaps a brief moratorium on unsubstantiated third party stories without any hard facts attached. That would be nice, if only for a few days.

Dennis Prouse
Insurance Bureau of Canada
Vancouver, BC

[Ozzy]

I'm sorry but I really can't "feel" for these insurance companies... not knowing which one you are, unfortunately because of our experience with ours over the past few days has made me realize that THAT particular company doesn't really give a crap about me.

Our farm needed to be protected by having a fire guard cut around it, we contact our insurance company and asked, what happens to the fences, fields, septic tank, underground wires and such if they get damaged or destroyed while we do this protective measure..... after an hour and a half confrence about this down at the coast --- (while the loggers and forestry is at our property WAITING for an answer) they tell my hubby.... nope sorry we won't cover those damages, now if you don't do anything and it burns your buildings we'll cover you for those losses....
Tell me why should I feel sorry for the long hours these people put in, as they tell me - basically let it burn.....
The handfull of caring insurance people out there, and I do believe there are some... are just that a handful.....

[Hi Dennis]

Gee, guess you knew the importance of keeping the wool over everyones eys...facts Dennis, you want facts..,.Ok, lets start here;

We are trial lawyers. We fight for the rights of consumers. We represent people swindled by insurance companies, telemarketers, magazine publishers, and other firms that have dealt with consumers in bad faith. We also represent whistleblowers who come forward with evidence of fraud involving government funds. Many of our cases are class actions, representing thousands of people with similar claims. We also represent people in cases by themselves. Our offices in Tampa, St. Petersburg and Tallahassee, Florida have become the base for a nationwide practice in class-action fraud and mass-tort litigation. Since 1993, we have helped return more than $3-billion to consumers and taxpayers who were victims of fraud. Our first major case, a class-action filed against the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, prompted a nationwide review of the insurance industry's sales practices over the last two decades. We also represented a key whistleblower in the government's record-breaking Medicare-fraud case against Columbia HCA, the nation's largest for-profit hospital chain.

[tucker]

Right on Ozzy, what an idiotic way of thinking. Burn it then we'll pay! Right on, if they have to damage stuff we don't pay!!
Lady from Barriere on BCTV, fenceing burnt, house saved, no insurance? They thought it covered in policy, sometimes I think they look for a way out.

[AreYouKiddingMe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're also in the United States, where, as you very well know but so conveniently failed to mention, insurance companies are governed by completely different legislative authorities. And yes, we Canadians know exactly how effective (well, INeffective, in this case) your various legislative bodies are in keeping check on the power of large multi-national corporations, lobby groups, and other conglomerates.

The fraud and illicit business practices to which you allude are not even remotely connected to the manner in which Canadian property and casualty companies operate. Even the case you mentioned, the one involving Metropolitan Life, has no bearing whatsoever on the everyday business practices of the Canadian P&C market.

Incidentally, I'm very surprised at your high moral stance, considering you're occupation. Your self-proclaimed specialty is, for the most part, nothing short of nauseating. Is it you we see on all the TV commercials begging for business? ("Have YOU been injured in an accident? Do YOU deserve money by legal settlement instead of by going out an earning it? Call our offices for your free neck brace...when we get back from ambulance chasing, you'll be our first priority.")

Your business is about winning settlements for your clients, which we all know is significantly different than winning legal victories based on merit and justice. Your business is to sue for the most ludricous of reasons, then pray for a settlement (a.k.a. hush money). A quick look at the stupid lawsuits you tolerate...no, ENDORSE in your country tells us that.

Curious anyone? Check out a site like this:

www.power-of-attorneys.com/StupidLawsuit.htm

Incidentally, that's the very first site of 87,000 hits off a Google search with the keywords "stupid", "lawsuits", and "U.S."

Based on the differences between the US and Canadian legal systems, you couldn't even stay in business in our country operating the way you do.

If you choose to repost something, may we ask that you provide evidence of your "good deeds" that involve a Canadian property and casualty insurer? Good luck finding a class action suit in that department.

Here's a quarter...now go away.