A burning opinion...

[Drip torch in the woods]

There is something seriously wrong with the suppression program at the Protection Branch within the Ministry of Forests.

At the 2001 IAWF Safety Summit (2001) for the International Association of Wildland Fire there were a number of findings published with regards to physical requirements for the job of firefighter. In the findings it discussed the US requirements and compared them to Australia, Tasmania and with regards to Canada it stated:

"Canada: Use of interagency, international crews will be necessary to reach adequate staffing on fires.”

Seems that in 2001 the IAWF confirmed what a number of people were saying in Salmon Arm back in 1998. So what happened this year? Canada hit Level 5 – the highest level of preparedness at around the same time as the US did. The difference, while our SOP is to bring in outside crews, the US has the flexibility in the system to have further resources made up by contractors.

The US approach:
“Standard training must be accessible to local government agencies and contractors, all
resources must train to same standards, local government fire departments and contractors
must be included in training plans and resources should train and practice together.”

The BC approach:
"The fires currently raging in the Interior are extremely volatile and dangerous. Only expertly trained firefighters - as employed by the B.C. Forest Service - should be on the front lines on these fires. We do draw upon the expertise of contract crews to undertake fire suppression and mop-up on less severe fires.
Because fighting forest fires is dangerous and exhausting work, we prefer to use professional fire fighters who are trained, physically fit and properly equipped. Out-of-province fire fighters are professionals who meet national standards for fitness and training in fire behaviour and fire safety. We have access to out-of-province fire fighters through mutual aid resource sharing agreements when BC Forest Service fire fighters are fully committed here.”

Oh brother… the level of arrogance within the upper echelons of the Protection Branch is reprehensible. Further, the national standards that they refer to are basically dictated by the NWCG an American entity. Get over yourselves and realize that there are many professionals that work outside of Government… and believe me when I tell you that I’m holding back when I say that.

The 7TH ANNUAL WILDLAND FIRE SAFETY SUMMIT is being held in Toronto from November 18 – 20, 2003. On the plate we have:

Fire Behaviour/Safety in Mountain Pine Beetle Killed Stands in British Columbia by
David Marek and Mike Dittaro, British Columbia Forest Service.

Coordination of Safety Activities on Multiple Employer Work Sites
Steve Bachop, Jim Price, British Columbia Forest Service

…And a number of presentations amongst them and the one I’m hoping the BCFS pays really close attention to is:

Loggers and Logging Equipment to Fight Wildland Fires: Issues and Opportunities in Oregon
Christopher Bielecki and Dr. John Garland

One of the things that’s painfully apparent to me from this years performance is that in the urban interface our forest service is ill prepared to interface. Pilots, wildland firefighters, structural firefighters, machine operators, military, contractors, loggers… when my community is threatened by fire they're all firefighters to me.

The forest service has a responsibility to facilitate training and ensure adequate resources are available to meet the needs of our province. CIFFC should be a pull the goalie play in the third period and not how we drop the puck at the opening face-off.

[Drip torch in the woods]

From the CIFFC web-site:

The Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre (CIFFC) provides operational fire-control services, as well as management and information services to its Member Agencies. In addition to coordinating services for all of the provinces and territories, CIFFC often coordinates the sharing of resources with the United States and other countries.

CIFFC operates as a private non-profit corporation…Funding for the Centre is as unique as its management systems. The Federal government contributes one-third of the Centre's operating costs. The remaining two-thirds is funded by the provinces and territories… Resources in Canada are shared on a formal basis under the Canadian Interagency Mutual Aid Resources Sharing (MARS) Agreement which outlines three categories of resources: equipment, personnel and aircraft.

[Disappointed]

BRAVO! You hit the nail on the head. We need more information like this. It confirms what I've been hearing from the front lines of the fire. The MOF does NOT consider the equipment operators to be professionals. The arrogance has been costly. We should know better than to allow this type of empire-building within our government services. I just wish more people knew about it and wish the media were prepared to ask tough questions. I guess real journalists don't insult heroes...

[Drip torch in the woods]

... And after this years dismal performance I'm going to keep hammering...

"Out-of-province fire fighters are professionals who meet national standards for fitness and training in fire behaviour and fire safety."

Sounds good, but the reality is we’re no closer to a national standard for fitness or training today then we were during the May 2001 Chisholm Fire in central Alberta that entrapped 14 firefighters. (3 BC type 1 Initial Attack firefighters with 11 Alberta type 3 firefighters)

A joint investigation was launched into the incident and the Ministry of Sustainable Resources in Alberta teamed up with our own experts from the Protection Branch of the Forest Service. The findings speak volumes toward the lack of a National Standard, contrary to the suggestion on the Forest Service website.

Findings:

"British Columbia personnel, although familiar with LCES were unfamiliar with the requirements for an Anchor Point, and used the term Anchor Point and Safety Zone synonymously. Although fire crewmembers discussed safety concerns regularly, they continued to work despite having knowingly breached the LCES/LACES. The strategies and tactics chosen by the crew boss and sector boss; that were approved by the division and line bosses were not appropriate given the fuel type and potential fire behaviour.

The two fire management agencies involved have a number of significantly different policies, procedures and regulations that govern safe work practices. Notable differences exist. For example, practices surrounding dangerous trees created by the fire and the use of LACES in Alberta versus LCES in British Columbia."

Hugh… I would have thought a “national standard” would preclude the possibility of these two organizations having a “number of significantly different policies, procedures and regulations”, but in Steve Bachop's own words, "Notable differences exist".

The fact is we don’t have National Standards, but what we do have is a publicly funded private corporation that markets our equipment and personnel abroad in an effort to offset some of the costs associated with running a fleet of bombers. In turn each organization agrees to use the other organizations personnel and equipment through CIFFC. The standard is an American Standard that is administered by the NWCG and the goal in Canada seems to be mimic that standard as closely as possible to open up the American market to Canadian fire fighting equipment and personnel.

Here’s a question that’ll pucker up Steve Bachop. How much do we pay CONsultants like Don to photocopy the NWCG courses that he buys for about $28.00 US? Oh, don’t get me wrong it’s a little more involved than that, he has to cover up the NWCG logo’s and put a Forest Service logo in it’s place… some times he even changes a sentence or two to reflect the Canadian Organizations, but the question remains… How much money does the forest service spend reinventing the wheel and perpetuating the myth of a National Standard for fire suppression in Canada?

It's elitism… it’s arrogance… and it’s counterproductive!

[tragicallyblonde]

Hey Drip, I found the CIFFC website by accident when this beast of a fire first reared its hot head...I saw the charts, the resources available, the letter to the duty officer. I sat in disbelief...It's amazing this whole province has not burnt to hell.... YOU are a wealth of information and I appreciate all you've posted. You have kept us informed and given, I hope, alot of people some thing to think about and act upon.

[Drip torch in the woods]

I’ve been offering one man’s opinion on this thread and I certainly don’t call myself an expert in this field but, I have offered expert findings to validate my opinion whenever possible. With this post I’m going to venture into some of my own observations over time and I hope it doesn’t come off as critical of the responders in this incident.

Urban Interface fires can happen two ways. The first and most obvious is the forest fire that burns into an urban area. After this year, we’ve all got a little more experience with that… The second obvious way that an interface fire can happen is a human caused start… an example would be the Princeton fire of 2001 when a flaming motor home lit the woods on fire, or the Barrier fire of this year. Of course anything from kids playing with matches to a car or house fire in the urban interface has the potential to cause such a fire and yet, with provincial statistics that say roughly 50% of all forest fires are caused by humans, the incidence of an Urban Interface fire caused by humans is really very rare.

Hmm… I’m going to scratch my head on that one for a moment or two and I’ll get back to it…

I think it was back around 1984 when the first Protection Officer showed up at the local fire hall on a practice night and gave us all the S 100 training course. (That holly grail that prevents experienced firefighters and loggers from volunteering to fight fires in the summer). Over the next couple of decades the forest service made a concerted effort to train guys that normally would surround and drown a fire to see things from a forest service perspective. The training involved building control line and burning out fuels and in the end, for the most part, we just continued on with the practice of surround and drown.

As far as the urban interface fires go, there’s a unified command, but in BC there is a separation between the structural firefighters and the wildland firefighters. The depth of that division became apparent this year with the formation of a Provincial Fire Department back on August 19, 2003.

Again, this is only my opinion, but it seems to me for about 18 years now we’ve had experts that basically dig ditches and lit more fires for three months of the year, going around to firehalls and telling guys that fight fire every day how to do things. Don’t get me wrong, much of what they bring to the table is valid and structural firefighters aren’t used to admitting that fire can overwhelm their capabilities and above all else they have brought an attitude of safety first when dealing with these large scale fires. But, the fire service has just as much to offer the forest service.

Back to the potential for urban interface fires resultant from humans… Why don’t we have more huge urban interface fires caused by humans? Why doesn’t Stanley park burn into the west end of Vancouver? Simple. The structural guys continued on with the practice of surround and down. They throw large volumes of water into the surface fuels of the fire and cool the leading edge of the blaze and then, sometimes, to keep the forest service happy they dig the control line around it… after it’s out.
At the end of this I’m going to post a copy of all the training courses available to the forest service employees. I see no indication that the forest service has adapted to the fire service at all over the years. There is no water supply course, there’s no course to help the forest service understand the capabilities of the fire service and there’s never been any attempt made to qualify or quantify fire service resources. It’s really this simple, if a CL-415 can slow a fire with 2000 gallons of water dropped from the air, is a fire truck that can pump 1000 gallons per minute not worthy of any consideration?

The values change when dealing with Urban Interface fires. Humans live near roads and water and the opportunity for a much more integrated approach exists for the forest service and the fire service. The bottom line… everyone has a role in the prevention and suppression of Urban interface fires… right down to the homeowner mitigating some of the risks before a fire even breaks out.

Here’s the list:

Suppression Series 100 Level Courses
S - 100 Basic Fire Suppression and Safety
S-10A Annual Retraining Requirements for S-100 Course
S - 140 Lookout Observer*
S . 170 Helicopter Safety and Survival
S . 181 Wilderness Survival
S - 185 Fire Entrapment Avoidance and Fire Shelter Deployment
S - 190 Safety and Fire Behaviour
200 Level Courses
S . 200 Firecrew Annual Training Recurrency Requirements
S . 205 Interface Fire Operations
S - 210 Fire Cause Determination (will become S110 in 2004)
S - 211 The Fire Environment for Fire Fighters and Dispatchers
S - 212 Fire Communications
S - 213 Use of Bulldozers (Heavy Equipment)
S - 230 Introduction to Supervision (Crew Boss)
S - 232 Portable Pumps and Water Delivery Systems
S - 235 Burning-off and Backfiring
S - 241 Fire Assessment
S - 242 Infrared Scanning*
S - 270 Helicopter Use and Safety
S - 271 Helipad Construction
S - 272 Deplaning and Enplaning from a Helicopter in Hover
S - 273 Air Patrol Standards
S - 274 Aerial Ignition/Drip Torches
S - 275 Air Tanker Safety/Operations
S - 280 Interface Safety
S - 281 HazMat Safety Awareness
S - 282 Electrical Safety Awareness
S - 283 H2S Safety Awareness
S - 290 Principles of Fire Behaviour (CD ROM)
Fire Crew Training Standard (for all new recruits, returning FF)
300 Level Courses
S - 330 Advanced Supervision
S - 340 Fundamentals of Prescribed Burning
S - 345 Light Hand on the Land
S - 346 Fire Rehabilitation
S - 350 Fire Camp Organization and Operations
S - 360 Fireline Finance and Administration
S - 371 Rotary Wing Birddog Officer
S - 390 Intermediate Fire Behaviour
400 Level Courses
S - 411 Weather for Fire Operations
S - 451 Agency Rep (Liaison Officer)
S - 455 Fire in Ecosystem Management
S - 470 Aviation Management*
500 Level Courses
S - 510 Advanced Fire Cause Determination
Training and Safety
Wildland Firefighting Resources . 2003 Page 85
S - 590 Advanced Wildland Fire Behaviour (National Course)
S - 591 Fire Behaviour Specialist (National Course)
Fire Control Officer* (annual refresher)
B.C. Emergency
Response Mgmt.
System
I - 100 Introduction to the Incident Command System (ICS)
I - 200 Basic Incident Command System (Modules 1 . 6)
I - 300 Intermediate Incident Command System (Modules 7 .11)
I - 400 Advanced Incident Command System (Modules 12 . 17)
1 . CST ICS I-200/300 Train the Trainer
M-Series Courses M - 200 Partnership Fireline
M - 201 Partnership Non-fireline
M - 212 Basic Media Relations
M - 215 Intro to FCP Act and Regulations
M - 220 Intro to Protection
M - 251 FFPR & S Regulations (*to be updated 2003/04)
M - 411 Risk Management
Other/Miscellaneous
Courses
AAA1 -Aircraft Accident Investigation
AAO1 -Air Attack Officer Level 1
AAO2 -Air Attack Officer Level 2
AAO3 -Air Attack Officer Level 3
ATV - All Terrain Vehicle
BEAR -Bear Awareness
CASO -Company Aviation Safety Officer
CRMI - Crew Resource Management
CRMR Crew Resource Management Recurrency
DDRV -Defensive Driving
DISP - Dispatcher Training
DSF1 - Fireline DSF Classroom
DSF2 - Fireline DSF Exam
DSF3 - Fireline DSF Proficiency
DTAF Fireline Danger Tree Assessor
DTAR Fireline Danger Tree Assessor Recurrency
E-100 Basic Law
E-110 ERA Recording Data
E-404 Making a Determination
E-406 Defending a Determination
E-501 ERA Review Officials
E-503 Panel Training/Hearings
EMEX Introduction to Emergency Exercises
EOC EOC Administration
ERGB Ergonomics/ Basics on MSI
ERGL Ergonomics Leader Training
ESA Extreme Slope Assistance
EVDT Emergency Vehicle Driver Training
FBLS Fireline Blasting
FOFF Fire Officer Training
GPS GPS Training
IIBC Intro to Investigations
ISCP Investigation/Enforcement Skills
OFA1 Level 1 WCB F/A
OFA2 Level 2 WCB F/A
OFA3 Level 3 WCB F/A
PARI Parattack Initial Training
PARR Parattack Recurrency Training
PCMW Protection Contract Management Workshop
Training and Safety
Wildland Firefighting Resources . 2003 Page 86
PH&D Prevention of Harassment and discrimination
RAPI Rap Initial Training
RAPN Rap Non-operational Training
RAPR Rap Recertification and Safety
SOFF Senior Fire Officer Training
TDG Transportation of Dangerous Goods
TKRF Timekeeper Refresher
TREN WCB Transportation Endorsement
WDTA Wildlife Danger Tree Assessor Course
WHMS Workplace Hazardous Material Training
Miscellaneous OFA1 Level 1 Occupational First Aid (was Survival 1st Aid)
TREN Transport Endorsement
OFA3 Level 3 Occupational First Aid (was Industrial First Aid)
E100 Basic Law (Compliance and Enforcement Branch)
RWBD Rotary-Wing Bird-dog Officer
WCBFB W.C.B. Falling / Bucking
WHMIS Workplace Hazardous Material Information System
TDG Transportation of Dangerous Goods
BRIEFING Information Package for Out-of-Province Crews and Personnel
DTA Dangerous Tree Assessment Course, Fire Safety Module
WDTA Wildlife/Danger tree Assessment
BEAR Bear Awareness training
SHAR Discrimination Prevention
DDRV Defensive Driving
EVDT Emergency Vehicle Driver Training
ESA Extreme Slope Assistance
RAPI Rappel Initial Training
PARI Parattack Initial Training
PDM Pilot Decision Making
CASO Company Aviation Safety Officer
CRM Crew Resource Management
AAI Agency Aircraft Accident Investigation
AA01 Air Attack Officer Training Level 1
AA02 Air Attack Officer Training Level 2
AA03 Air Attack Officer Training Level 3
E-100 Basic Law
M-212 Basic Media Relations
M-215 Introduction to FPC Act and Regs.
M-220 Introduction to Protection Program
M-411 Fire Wx./Behaviour for Mangers
EOC Emergency Operation Centre Training

[tragicallyblonde]

Thanks Drip, Ive got ALOT of reading to do...and I WILL.

[FF]

Fuel management and Fire supression seem to be the 2 emerging issues. I would like to suggest ,in the name of Fire Prevention that $$ from the fire relief fund be spent on investigation and recommendations that are fair and reasonable. By the time the smoke clears and the paper is pushed, we will be nearing a provincial election. The government can put an infinite amount of money into the propaganda machine and not much will get fixed. We have too many managers that couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag. I would also suggest that the Sierra Legal Defence come on board as there are some very important environmental issues here. The media will ferret out the truth and we will see a movie about how the managers spent half a billion $$ needed for health care, experimenting with Fire Control on their Playstation 2 programs. And the health care problems that will cost us long into the future, and the tripling of our home insurance, and the loss of property and timber and wildlife. Thanks B.C. Forest Service, Protection branch......for nothing! You wouldn't need a lot of training for huge fires if you would go back to aggressive initial attack and keep fires small again. At least some will double their certification experience with these 6 weeks from hell.

[Drip torch in the woods]

tragicallyblonde said:

Thanks Drip, Ive got ALOT of reading to do...and I WILL.

Hi Tragicallyblonde,

Well, if you’re not in the protection branch of the Ministry of Forests, chances are you’ll never be allowed access to any of those courses listed above. The policy is something to the effect of we’ll only release (sell) those materials to provincially approved fire instructors. Depending on where you live, a community college may be able to offer you the S-100 and if you have a buddy that’s a contractor you may even be able to access some of the other really basic courses.

The good news is you can view the original,… er…agh… I mean the American equivalent, material by ordering from this catalogue.

www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/catalog/pubcat2003.pdf

COURSES
The course descriptions are based on the information stated in the course instructor’s guide. Descriptions include the date the course was certified, whether the course is designed for classroom or self-study mode, and suggested hours for classroom presentations. Suggested hours for self-study courses or pre-course work are not given because it varies among individuals.
Refer to the Field Manager’s Course Guide, PMS 901-1, at www.nwcg.gov/pms/training/training.htm for indepth
descriptions of courses, job aids and training standards. Refer to www.nationalfiretraining.net for
monthly course development status and links to course schedules.

Expanded Dispatch 9
D-105 ENTRY LEVEL DISPATCHER
D-110 DISPATCH RECORDER
D-310 SUPPORT DISPATCHER
Incident Command System National Training Curriculum 11
I-100 INTRODUCTION TO ICS
I-200 BASIC ICS
I-300 INTERMEDIATE ICS
I-400 ADVANCED ICS
I-401 MULTI-AGENCY COORDINATION
I-402 ICS FOR EXECUTIVES
Leadership 16
L-180 HUMAN FACTORS ON THE FIRELINE
L-280 FOLLOWERSHIP TO LEADERSHIP
Management 17
M-410 FACILITATIVE INSTRUCTOR
M-480 MULTI-AGENCY COORDINATING GROUP
Prescribed Fire 18
RX-300 PRESCRIBED FIRE BURN BOSS
RX-340 INTRODUCTION TO FIRE EFFECTS
RX-450 SMOKE MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES
Prevention 19
P-101 INTRODUCTION TO WILDFIRE PREVENTION
P-110 INSPECTING FIRE PRONE PROPERTY
P-130 WILDLAND FIRE CAUSE DETERMINATION FOR FIRST RESPONDERS
P-301 WILDLAND FIRE PREVENTION PLANNING
Suppression Skills 20
S-110 BASIC FIRE SUPPRESSION ORIENTATION
S-130 FIREFIGHTER TRAINING
S-131 ADVANCED FIREFIGHTER TRAINING
S-134 LOOKOUTS, COMMUNICATIONS, ESCAPE ROUTES AND SAFETY ZONES (LCES)
S-190 INTRODUCTION TO WILDLAND FIRE BEHAVIOR
S-200 INITIAL ATTACK INCIDENT COMMANDER TYPE 4 (ICT4)
S-201 SUPERVISORY CONCEPTS & TECHNIQUES
S-203 INTRODUCTION TO INCIDENT INFORMATION
S-205 FIRE OPERATIONS IN THE URBAN INTERFACE
S-211 PORTABLE PUMPS AND WATER USE
S-212 WILDFIRE POWERSAWS
S-216 DRIVING FOR THE FIRE SERVICE
S-217 INTERAGENCY HELICOPTER TRAINING GUIDE
S-230 CREW BOSS (SINGLE RESOURCE)
S-231 ENGINE BOSS (SINGLE RESOURCE)
S-232 DOZER BOSS (SINGLE RESOURCE)
S-233 TRACTOR/PLOW BOSS (SINGLE RESOURCE)
S-234 IGNITION OPERATIONS
S-244 FIELD OBSERVER
S-245 DISPLAY PROCESSOR
S-248 STATUS/CHECK-IN RECORDER
S-258 INCIDENT COMMUNICATIONS TECHNICIAN
S-260 INTERAGENCY INCIDENT BUSINESS MANAGEMENT
8 COURSES 2003 NFES Catalog Part 2: Publications
S-261 APPLIED INTERAGENCY INCIDENT BUSINESS MANAGEMENT
S-270 BASIC AIR OPERATIONS
S-290 INTERMEDIATE WILDLAND FIRE BEHAVIOR
S-300 INCIDENT COMMANDER EXTENDED ATTACK
S-301 LEADERSHIP & ORGANIZATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
S-330 TASK FORCE/STRIKE TEAM LEADER
S-336 FIRE SUPPRESSION TACTICS
S-339 DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR
S-346 SITUATION UNIT LEADER
S-347 DEMOBILIZATION UNIT LEADER
S-348 RESOURCES UNIT LEADER
S-354 FACILITIES UNIT LEADER
S-355 GROUND SUPPORT UNIT LEADER
S-356 SUPPLY UNIT LEADER
S-357 FOOD UNIT LEADER
S-358 COMMUNICATIONS UNIT LEADER
S-359 MEDICAL UNIT LEADER
S-360 FINANCE/ADMINISTRATION UNIT LEADER
S-371 HELIBASE MANAGER
S-378 AIR TACTICAL GROUP SUPERVISOR
S-390 INTRODUCTION TO WILDLAND FIRE BEHAVIOR CALCULATIONS
S-400 INCIDENT COMMANDER
S-403 INFORMATION OFFICER
S-404 SAFETY OFFICER
S-420 COMMAND AND GENERAL STAFF
S-430 OPERATIONS SECTION CHIEF
S-440 PLANNING SECTION CHIEF
S-445 INCIDENT TRAINING SPECIALIST
S-450 LOGISTICS SECTION CHIEF
S-460 FINANCE/ADMINISTRATION SECTION CHIEF
S-470 AIR OPERATIONS BRANCH DIRECTOR
S-490 ADVANCED WILDLAND FIRE BEHAVIOR CALCULATIONS
S-491 INTERMEDIATE NATIONAL FIRE DANGER RATING SYSTEM
Job Aids 40
J-158 RADIO OPERATOR
J-236 STAGING AREA MANAGER
J-252 ORDERING MANAGER
J-253 RECEIVING AND DISTRIBUTION MANAGER
J-254 BASE/CAMP MANAGER
J-255 EQUIPMENT MANAGER
J-257 INCIDENT COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER
J-259 SECURITY MANAGER
J-342 DOCUMENTATION UNIT LEADER
J-375 AIR SUPPORT GROUP SUPERVISOR
TS-256 CACHE DEMOBILIZATION SPECIALIST
PMS 312 EXPANDED DISPATCH JOB AIDS
Other Courses 43
PMS 316 WILDLAND AND PRESCRIBED FIRE QUALIFICATION SYSTEM
PMS 416 STANDARDS FOR SURVIVAL
PMS 418 HAZARDOUS MATERIALS AWARENESS PROGRAM FOR FIREFIGHTERS
PMS 419 ENGINE OPERATOR
PMS 427 LOOK UP, LOOK DOWN, LOOK AROUND
PMS 428 LEARN TO BEHAVE
PMS 443 CLASS A FOAM
PMS 490 LESSONS LEARNED: FATALITY FIRE CASE STUDIES

[Drip torch in the woods]

Here's one that Don could start photocopying, oh ug… I mean writing…

S-336 FIRE SUPPRESSION TACTICS (1990)
CLASSROOM (32 hours)
NFES 2118 S-336 Instructor's Guide $38.90
NFES 2119 S-336 Student Workbook $1.46
NFES 2120 S-336 Reference Text $1.81
NFES 2121 S-336 Slide Set $25.18
NFES 2122 S-336 video, It's Your Challenge $1.95
NFES 2123 S-336 video, Light Hand on the Land $2.33
NFES 2124 S-336 video, Pulaskis and Prescriptions $2.10
Other materials needed to present this course:
NFES 2094 "Fire in the Interface" video $2.67
NFES 2073 "Introduction to Class A Foam" video $1.97
NFES 2071 "Fatigue and the Firefighter's Environment" video $1.86
Units within this course are: Introductory, Fireline Construction, Handcrews, Mechanical Equipment, Water and Chemicals, Fire in Control Operations, Tactical Air Operations, Wildland/Urban Interface, and Combinations ofResources.

[FF]

Well it certainly is a good thing you guys aren't running the program or we could add firefighter deaths to the tally.

I've spent over 40 days on the fireline this year and the type 2 and type 3 crews were useless. I (a type 1 crewmember) spent so much time keeping them out of trouble and double checking their work that it significantly cut into my own firefighting time.

I've also spent a good deal of time fighting fire in the US and I wouldn't be too quick to hold them up as a shining example. They have some excellent fire fighters but they also have their share of duds.

And one more thing, they spend a lot of money, burn a lot of forest, burn a lot of homes, and kill the occassional fire fighter.

Put all the fires out when they're small..... Grow up guys.

[Drip torch in the woods]

Guest-FF said:

Well it certainly is a good thing you guys aren't running the program or we could add firefighter deaths to the tally.

I've spent over 40 days on the fireline this year and the type 2 and type 3 crews were useless. I (a type 1 crewmember) spent so much time keeping them out of trouble and double checking their work that it significantly cut into my own firefighting time.

I've also spent a good deal of time fighting fire in the US and I wouldn't be too quick to hold them up as a shining example. They have some excellent fire fighters but they also have their share of duds.

And one more thing, they spend a lot of money, burn a lot of forest, burn a lot of homes, and kill the occassional fire fighter.

Put all the fires out when they're small..... Grow up guys.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I have a better understanding for the familiarity in your tone...

Let's not forget the three pilots that died in BC this year... it's not like we don't have our share of accidents.

As for the USA… I think if you re-read my posts you will see that I was not offering them up as an example of how we should fight fires, however I do support their policies towards training and the effective implementation of national standards.


I also support a more integrated approach when dealing with interface fires. My opinion... Interface fires are not forest fires and if they were we would see cars and houses given a fuel type in the FBP charts.

And yes, the USA burns a lot of forest and in an average year they lose about the same amount of homes as we did in Kelowna in an evening… oh and it’s a little hotter, a little dryer and they have a lot more fires and way more homes to lose.

[FFno1]

Soory Drip. Wasn't me. I can't get over how the public defenders take everything out of context. Of course you can't lay down miles of retardant guard( Chase) and just let the fire burn thru it. It is not the retardants fault. You need to follow it up. Agressively

[Brandy]

Gee what happened to the good old days (60's and 70's)when there was only 1 forester managing the Penticton district and kept a ground crew on OK Park to fight any flare ups that lightening started? OR how about the good old days when you could go into a bar and drag out the patrons to fight the fire 24/7 until it was out without even paying them?

HMMMMMMMM?

GEE I think WCB stepped in. Another useless bunch of dingdongs.

[Drip torch in the woods]

Sorry Brandy, but I can’t agree with any of that.

I’m glad the days of the “street firefighter” conscripted from the local pub are gone and I agree whole-heartedly with the WCB requirements for qualified firefighters. With most forest fires you don’t have a threat to life or property until you send someone out to deal with it. We owe it to the people we call upon to equip them with knowledge as well as hardware so that they can safely execute their jobs.

The coroner’s inquest that led to the current WCB regulations is an example of just how bad things can get when we put untrained and unqualified people out on the front lines. I feel going forward the training program, and more specifically the delivery and target audience of the program need to be further refined. All firefighters need training and community/local resources need to be fostered in order to have an effective initial attack capability and resources for larger project fires.

Urban Interface fires require a cooperative response from a number of agencies both within the public sector and from the private sector as well. Somehow in our uniquely Canadian way we’ve transferred the administration of fire suppression resources over to the private sector, (CIFFC) and charged the public sector with delivering those services. Hmm… kind of backwards if you ask me.