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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jun 20, 2004 15:06:18 GMT -5
Did the Province of British Columbia learn anything last year? I see the Premier has a spot in which he proclaims that we learned a lot about how to prevent fires last year… he says two out of three fires were caused by people. events.onlinebroadcasting.com/bcgov/061404/footage_225.asxHmm… that’s interesting… In a very tongue in cheek fashion I believe that the Premier is a lot closer to the truth than the upper echelons of the Protection Branch would be comfortable with, but according to the Forest Service website the official tally for last year by cause was: 964 caused by people 1,515 caused by lightning That’s not even close to 2 out of 3, but I can let that little inaccuracy go given the fact that I so agree with the overall message behind the spot. We need to be careful with and cognizant of the threat of wildfire in this Province. We have the Wildfire Act… I lost interest at third reading and I’m not really sure and couldn’t care less where it’s at in Parliament at this point. www.legis.gov.bc.ca/37th5th/3rd_read/gov25-3.htm My personal opinion… when a wildfire starts and enters an urban interface area – you can’t order, serve notice, appropriate, investigate, or get a court order that will make the problem go away. At least all the new regulations and remedies with it’s ensuing bureaucracy will maintain a stable pulp market for our burnt wood. The Filmon review recommended the obvious and carefully avoided the issues. Where’s increased availability to training and how has the Forest Service made it any easier for resources outside of the Forest Service to maintain currency? How about that Forest Service review? www.for.gov.bc.ca/protect/reports/2003Review/Okanagan_Fire_Review_K50628.pdfAt least the censor that pulled my early posts from last year will know exactly what I mean when I say - “I told you so”… nudge, nudge… wink, wink… Interagency cooperation will be the one area that we will see a huge change in this year… the Province has spent a great deal of time ferreting out who will do what and how they fit into the ICS and the BCERMS. Evacuations will be quicker… Command posts will be higher tech and there are a few more toys to be played with and more forms to be filled out. Do we have a community based response system? Can communities throughout BC manage their own situations for the first 72 hours? Is there a procedure for pre-qualifying resources and a central database that is tracking them? Or is the Forrest Service still reliant upon CIFFC and is there still the possibility that the guy making decisions on burnout and back burn operations is from Saskatchewan and the person supervising the cat operator that built road in the bush in BC for 20 years is from Manitoba and feeling his oats after the successful completion of his 8 hour course? Keeping an eye on the weather and I suspect a good portion of the Province will be sitting in the critical crossover levels as far as temp and humidity go… Now would be a good time to have another critical look at that first 10 meters around your home.
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Post by MyParentsHouse on Jun 21, 2004 0:33:34 GMT -5
forgotten about us. Much information to absorb definately. Well we have the woods cleared around mom and dad's house that is for sure....nothing around there for miles now....tee hee...okay just a little humor there in a very serious subject. I think this has brought about ALOT of thought in many people's eyes what happened last year. Here is hoping that going thru it definately had them learn something. I am not up on the democratic part of it of the reports but in just talking to people they are much more pro-active this year in their yards, insurances ect. Many friends in interface areas have cleared alot of stuff, their yards and debris...to bad it took last year to get them to see it....Hope to see your info flooding in more often.....Missed ya.
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jun 21, 2004 23:53:25 GMT -5
Hello MyParentshouse... I’ve been out kicking around in your neighbourhood a number of times since this board went quiet last year – walked a couple spots that have always troubled me and took a good look around. Seems like I’m back at it way too soon, but that might be the time I put into monitoring the San Diego blow up of late last year. Just dropped in to say hi and while I was taking a good look at Lillooet and a couple of other hot spots in the Province, I suddenly became inspired to step up on this soap box one more time. Looks to me like it’s going to be another very serious fire season again this year… early drying… very low humidity’s… and some almost unseasonably hot temperatures in some areas of the Province that wouldn’t usually even be on the radar this time of year. North Island, Mid Coast and Coastal regions are in my opinion set up for some trouble and really at the mercy of Mother Nature this year. March and April were weird months and the snow pack just seemed to disappear for a few weeks throughout the province. Matters for Coastal and Mid Coast may have been compounded by of all things – a week of rain in early June. It rained just enough to really green up all those fine fuels and once they dry out, that television commercial with the forest floor shown as match sticks, will be a pretty accurate analogy. If I had a house in the woods right now… I look at my driveway. Is it open enough to allow access to trucks? I’d look at the immediate 10 meter zone around the perimeter of my house. Are the fuels reduced enough? I look at my roof and if I did have shakes for roofing material I’d set up a sprinkler system and start sprinkling the moment I smelt smoke… I’d check out the firesmart manual… www.for.gov.bc.ca/protect/safety/pamphlets/FireSmart-BC4.pdfAnd I’d have a talk with my insurance people. Stepping back off that soap box and going back into lurker mode. Have a good one and be safe. Good to see you again MyParentsHouse - hope all is well.
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Post by MyParentsHouse on Jun 22, 2004 3:13:01 GMT -5
the forests are in for a big huge mess this year I believe. I don't just think here but at the coast too. You are so right about the greening up of the fuel only to dry out in the summer(unreasonably hot) season we are having even to this day. It doesn't by the sounds of it look like it will let up at all this year either. The snow pack unfortunately never even made it to the valley here due to the thirsty nature of the ground from last year. The spring run off was not much to nil in alot of areas. Otherwise in a laymans term....it is "Dryer than a popcorn fart" down here. Talk about a dust bowl up there by the park now huh? Poor Lillooet....my heart is just aching right now for them...watching the news and watching them pack up is all to familiar for us. They are angry already though as they are saying they didn't respond fast enough to it. Any info on that one? ? All is well here Drip...mom and dad just today dug the foundation for their house....still not sure if it is covered by insurance(totally) and they are going to have a mortgage again(Paid it off in November of previous year) as the ground work to tier their property and fix it up was really expensive and of course NOT covered by insurance. But there is progress after a long time of banging their heads against a wall. Life is good.....
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Post by Castanet Moderator on Jun 22, 2004 20:53:31 GMT -5
What censor would that be?
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jul 5, 2004 23:25:43 GMT -5
Hello Mr. Moderator,
What censor would that be, you asked…
Well at the risk of launching into another full circle on a matter that’s been beaten to death on this forum… here goes.
I’m talking about the censor that in the early stages of the OMP fire would delete any thread, post or comment that questioned or criticised the management of the OMP fire of 2003. The censor that; removed the posts about fields of equipment sitting idle, the posts discussing the idle mars sitting in Sprout Lake and the ones that questioned the very structure of the fire management team that was assembled to respond to the OMP fire.
I’m talking about the censor that would sit limp and watch as guests were attacked on a personal basis for questioning the tactics of the forest service. The one that went out of his way to quash any relevant or meaningful discussions and on a number of occasions removed pictures or posts that would provide a very realistic look at some of the things that went wrong with the OMP fire.
The censor that erased a bit of history and quashed the free flow of communications that may have enabled the people of British Columbia to better understand the dynamics of a problem that isn’t going to go away soon. The censor that perpetuated the myth that these matters are better left to experts and not fit for discussion by the average Joe.
Was that censoring from you? You maintained that you didn’t remove pictures and that you didn’t quash threads and I’m willing to accept that, but it still happened on your board that you host and for that you should just accept some responsibility and move on.
Failing that… we’ll just cut and paste your circular posts on the matter and create a link to the PIO website to serve as a template on how to kill a public discussion board.
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Post by Castanet Moderator on Jul 6, 2004 11:04:58 GMT -5
Drip torch in the woods...
There is no censorship conspiracy here. Honest.
Just reading the board should be evidence of that. In fact, I received a complaint recently that there is not enough moderation here... you all are a tough crowd to please.
Brendan, who was moderator of the board during the OMP, did not do what you say. I dare say there were just too many messages and not enough for anyone to have the time to invoke the censoring you mention.
Me? I was spending 18-20 hours a day updating firewatch.
There is no hidden agenda.
The thought police don't exist here.
The paranoia is not justified. It probably says more about how you think others will receive your ideas.
This board was created so there could be a free exchange of ideas during the fire.
Time to let it go.
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jul 6, 2004 23:54:26 GMT -5
Sorry Mr. Moderator, There was plenty of censorship on this board during the OMP incident of 2003. Pictures were removed from the photo page, posts were removed from the board and whole threads were deleted or unplugged. Like I said... may-be it wasn't you and in fact may-be a "higher power" did intervene, but this board was both monitored and censored. ... just making an observation and the fact that you responded speaks volumes. I stand by my 53 posts that have escaped the eraser on this board. I feel that I added a unique and perhaps thought provoking perspective to the situation that presented itself last year. I'm more than capable of responding to people and their emotional reactions to the ideas that I put across and you know... for the amount of visitors you had during that time I really didn't get called to task on many of my posts. Paranoid (as in “obsessively anxious about something, or unreasonably suspicious of other people and their thoughts or motives”)... really... seems to me you have 73 posts on the board - the majority of which center around the issue of censorship and more to the point most of them are you denying the censorship. Anyways Mr Moderator… I was taking a subtle shot at the Forest Service review paradigm before you piqued in on the censorship issue. You did the community a great service by allowing the space for this board and the work you did on the FireWatch pages was phenomenal. Obviously there was some personal motivation for the tremendous effort that you put into this board and you must have felt that it was important for the public to discuss the topic. So tell me, after all the effort that you put into the fire for the community that you serve, how do you feel about this document? www.for.gov.bc.ca/protect/reports/2003Review/Okanagan_Fire_Review_K50628.pdf Is that even the same fire you were reporting on? Are you not the least bit concerned that some expensive lessons have been lost in the effort to cover everyone’s butt?
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Post by Cranky on Jul 7, 2004 11:01:58 GMT -5
While the fires of '03 were destructive, we still wish to point a finger and fault find.I agree with the moderater that it is time to move on. We can see that in all areas and levels of government,there are problems and things that we shake our heads at.Well,people,we elected them.Come what may,they are there until next election. There is rebuilding happening and that is good.There are still people that need help with things,there are people that have emotional issues that need help.I say,instead of our energies being put into finger pointing and name calling,it would be better put that energy into rebuilding the human lives that were affecting and not worry about tearing down more lives(government as well as public)by continually bleating about waht should have been done.
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Post by Castanet Moderator on Jul 7, 2004 20:56:20 GMT -5
The former moderator sent me this reply to an email I sent him that might explain the strange goings on here. I only share it now reluctantly…
David, I think it's time to share the truth that I have learned but wasn’t ready to tell you or the rest of the world. This has been pieced together through many contacts over the past 10 months. I hope to go more public with it soon with a book I have been writing. I hope you don’t think I am a “wack-job”, but here goes.
The Forest Service was most definitely involved in what happened last summer, but they were put in that awkward spot by the military and specifically NORAD command. Yes, this gets weirder.
There was a lighting strike that night, that is true. What isn't known is that the lightening hit what the Air Force calls an “unidentified operator” that caused it to crash near Rattlesnake Island. Senior authorities and “military-speak” try and lead you to believe that the craft may not be “from this world”. Those more grounded seem to agree it was some type of new airplane being tested by the U.S. military that they don’t want to admit to having. Ottawa doesn’t want to admit that they were helping the Americans test it. In any case, the craft in question used a revolution new radioactive power source that prevented fire fighters from getting to the site to fight the fire when it started. Apparently the reactor can be “hot” for days rendering the area radioactive and traditional fire fighting useless. The debris spread was concentrated near Rattlesnake Island and spread out towards Kelowna, explaining perhaps why Naramata was spared.
What we were never shown was infrared pictures that that night of the crash that would have confirmed the radioactivity debris trail. It also explains why infrared photography was shunned by the Forest Service through the fire as the radioactive elements would have gone off the chart and given it away.
I suspect the flack you are getting about the board is due to the U.S. government utilizing their back door to online services. Many of these companies are dependant on FCC for the non-internet side of the business and they are more than willing to trade off this type of access for regulatory favors.
I think it’s safe to start telling the story now. There have been some changes in military leadership lately, especially in the wake of the controversial surrounding torture of prisoners. There’s also some talk that the military is overly pleased with Bush and would just as well see him get voted out in November if the news of this comes out now.
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jul 7, 2004 22:18:08 GMT -5
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jul 7, 2004 22:38:19 GMT -5
While the fires of '03 were destructive, we still wish to point a finger and fault find.I agree with the moderater that it is time to move on. We can see that in all areas and levels of government,there are problems and things that we shake our heads at.Well,people,we elected them.Come what may,they are there until next election. There is rebuilding happening and that is good.There are still people that need help with things,there are people that have emotional issues that need help.I say,instead of our energies being put into finger pointing and name calling,it would be better put that energy into rebuilding the human lives that were affecting and not worry about tearing down more lives(government as well as public)by continually bleating about waht should have been done. Yeah... you know if someone made a mistake that caused the disruption of 30,000 lives and threatened the very existence of British Columbia's third largest city I could understand your point. However, that clearly wasn't the case and the potential for disaster is still very real. What about the future victims? What about the inevitable deaths that will occur? I agree with you to an extent, let's move on, but I'm not comfortable with inserting my cranium into my rectum and pretending that it's someone else’s problem. Kelowna's rebuilding and my insurance rates are going up. CIFFC is taking advantage of the fact that the US is relatively slow for the moment and today 1 twenty person unit crew was brought in from Washington along with 3 division supervisors. 5 more division supervisors were brought in from Oregon and Idaho sent up 5 three person intitial attack crews. According to you there isn't a problem this year. According to the government that your so desperately tring to shield from scrutiny there is a problem, but it isn't one that Canadians - especially British Columbians can deal with. Until the forest service fosters a more cooperative approach British Columbians will be sending their money to agencies outside of the province and people without a vested interest in our province will be taking care of our problems for profits. And given the foresight and resolve shown on this thread... perhaps that's the way it should be. vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_fires20040707
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Jul 8, 2004 0:18:51 GMT -5
As of today...
There have been 1082 fires in BC. In 2003 there was only 550 to this date...
149,661 hectares have burned in BC. In 2003 only 4,097 hectares had burned to this date.
Almost a 100% increase in the number of fires and a little more than 3000% increase in the forested area burned.
And it's only July 7 th...
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Post by Cranky on Jul 8, 2004 0:43:13 GMT -5
Yeah... you know if someone made a mistake that caused the disruption of 30,000 lives and threatened the very existence of British Columbia's third largest city I could understand your point. However, that clearly wasn't the case and the potential for disaster is still very real. What about the future victims? What about the inevitable deaths that will occur? I agree with you to an extent, let's move on, but I'm not comfortable with inserting my cranium into my rectum and pretending that it's someone else’s problem. Kelowna's rebuilding and my insurance rates are going up. CIFFC is taking advantage of the fact that the US is relatively slow for the moment and today 1 twenty person unit crew was brought in from Washington along with 3 division supervisors. 5 more division supervisors were brought in from Oregon and Idaho sent up 5 three person intitial attack crews. According to you there isn't a problem this year. According to the government that your so desperately tring to shield from scrutiny there is a problem, but it isn't one that Canadians - especially British Columbians can deal with. Until the forest service fosters a more cooperative approach British Columbians will be sending their money to agencies outside of the province and people without a vested interest in our province will be taking care of our problems for profits. And given the foresight and resolve shown on this thread... perhaps that's the way it should be. vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_fires20040707 ME?! Sheild the government?! Never will I sheild such a sorry excuse for government.Nor do I wander around with my head up I disagree! That crap about some secret airplane!? Bull poo!The decision to hit that fire fast and hard was hampered by some useless paperpushing idiot at the Forestry office no doubt.This whole thing is way bizarre. We so often let the media lead us into such a frenzy over stuff.Have you dug a hole lately?Have you seen the depth of water penitration? I kive in a forested area and the trees surrounding me as well as the underbrush are supple,not tinder freaking dry as the media would have us believe. The media and the government have become so prolific at blowing hot air up our butts,we believe all that comes done the pipe.No wonder old fart knowit alls such as yourself whistle while you walk in the wind!!!
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