Misuse of Heavy Equipment!

[Disappointed]

Kudos to the City/Structural fire fighters. When the fire moved into the populated areas, they gave 110%. Fortunately that has only been part of this fire.
The majority of the action has been and is in the forest. Although the Forestry crews and Military are on the ground and working hard, the guys who are in the thick of the flames, at the head of the fire are the equipment operators. The equipment operators are on Cats, skidders, bunchers and excavators cutting fireguards, getting trapped in canyons and having burning trees fall around them. Most have more fire experience than the fire bosses. They are also shaking their heads as they are being sent on wasteful missions, and when they can make a difference they are told to sit idle.
Look at the power line at Chute Lake Rd., did the Forestry chose to widen that natural break? Not at all. It was suggested, but ignored. Instead equipment was put in a canyon, where three pieces were lost.
There is a similar power line that runs across the base of the Myra Canyon Service Rd. Today there were four bulldozers in a gravel pit just below that, idle. There were at least 10 more sitting idle in the Gordon Sports Field Staging area. They are all being paid half rate to be on standby. Why isn’t the Ministry of Forests working them?
Few people know this, but for the four days while the fire was quiet, before the fire reared up and destroyed the KVR- the Ministry of Forests was laying off many pieces of equipment and the rest were on standby. There was NO aggressive guard building. At 6pm, the night the fire flared up, the equipment was sent in. By then it was too late. Could they have saved the KVR if they had been working on it for four days? Who knows, but I do know that they did not get a chance to try.
I see the operators risking their lives, and nobody has delivered them palates of beer. No posters show a bulldozer, no TV crews have interviewed operators. Our misplaced hero worship is preventing us from seeing the whole picture and hearing the whole story!

[MyParentsHouse]

back they are very much appreciated...look at what they are doing...they do alot more than any man can do...with a pick axe and shovel...Once again I will say Kudos to the heavy equipment operators...and once again..thank you for reminding us of this...I think when people say firefighters I know myself they are lumped in with them...sorry to say in this situation...

[ExFS FireBoss]

Guest-Disappointed said:

Few people know this, but for the four days while the fire was quiet, before the fire reared up and destroyed the KVR- the Ministry of Forests was laying off many pieces of equipment and the rest were on standby. There was NO aggressive guard building. At 6pm, the night the fire flared up, the equipment was sent in. By then it was too late. Could they have saved the KVR if they had been working on it for four days? Who knows, but I do know that they did not get a chance to try.

Someone once said "An auditor is someone who goes in after the battle and stabs all the wounded." A lot of this stuff will come out in the wash, people will be critical of actions, lawsuits will ensue. I'm a firm believer in accountablilty, esp. when they are spending millions per day. My point: Everyone is human and they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. And there will be extensive reviews.

[tucker]

I have one tiny thing
to tell: My hubby's Dad was a logger and so was my hubby for a while; they both feel that they'd rather be protected by burnt out old loggers than some on what we are seeing on tv. Don't get me wrong I'm not running anyone down and I think the forest fire fighters are great. I think that now you have to have a course in it. However sometimes maybe old experince??

[Umm how about]

Please MyParentsHouse...I don't mean this as personal attack. Far from it, with 278 posting in this forum, we should change the name to MyParentsHouse.com

The judgement that the crews are doing a great job comes from...where? We all hear that they are doing a great job. They probably are. But is it so politically incorrect or blasphemous to question that judgement?

Do you or I or anyone else who has time on their hands to cruise a chat room, have the background, experience or expertise to gauge the effectiveness of the effort? And from what sources do we draw our raw information? The media...oh pleeease!

By default I am not saying they are doing a bad job. I just wish everyone would stop all this over-the-top sugar and spice, sticky sweet hero worship of crews that, as heartless as it sounds, are doing the jobs they signed up for, are trained to do and are currently being paid a healthy wage to execute.

I have spent over 20 years working for private companies in the bush in all parts of BC, Yukon and NWT. Anyone who has spent time dealing with forestry, land use, wildlife and conservation or almost any other government ministries have more than a few horror stories of ineffective and downright damaging examples of power positioned bureaucrats in the field.

Is it so out of line to suggest that this effort might have a few or maybe more than a few examples? Again, not to say this effort is a comedy of errors. But please, lets keep a lid on reality here.

Once the smoke clears, ask some of the private contractors who's equipment (2 D8s and a faller buncher) that was used by forestry and was left to burn on the fireguards even though they could have been walked out. No worries. Like the burned out homes, insurance and governemnt will replace them.

Might I make a bit of a sweeping assumption that most of the people blindly heaping glory in spades all over these guys doing their jobs, likely have never held a physically demanding/dirty/sweaty/remote bush job in their life. The "amazing job" the waterbombers are doing judged basically on seeing them bank over the bridge ignores that this is the easiest flying these guys can do... huge lake, endless valley mild mountian contours. What we have seen in the bombers buzzing the bridge is mostly good use of airtime. But don't kid yourself, there's an element of showboating going on. The routing they were flying would bore a librarian after a few passes.

What folks are seeing on TV and listening to on the radio is their likely many's first exposure to a side of BC's primary resource industry that few ever have the chance of seeing. As our province replaces fallers, fishers and miners with hotel managers, website designers and clothing store clerks, this side of labour will shrink. It's like reality TV. Only this is real and has been going on for decades.

So hats off to all the folks involved with the fire effort. I'll buy you a beer after it's over. But maybe you should buy me one. I know most of you are making way more money than I will this year. Stay safe.

[MyParentsHouse]

your posts..if you look when I registered it was a while ago....I happen to have a computer right close by and yes I do have time to post...This forum was a sanctuary for alot of us who were dealing with losses and family losses and a place for support until all the questions and accusations started. As far as where we get our info...no I get it from the guys we have as friends as firefighters...my family up north are very much in the forestry industry so I understand what they are doing. There have been mistakes made...but to error is human...Can the average person who has not been up to the fire judge...no I don't feel we can...we have seen what it does and for a man paid or not to go in is a hero...that includes the machinery men...Ever see a grown man cry from the frustration of not dealing with this fire..I have...the torment and the frustration they are feeling is unbearable paid or not. As for being heros...I believe they are...my opinion..if people choose not to feel that way it is cool too...I personally buy these guys a beer fire fighting or not...oh ya...and as far as being able to buy a beer...3 of the friends are volunteer...what they make there they all have second and third jobs...As far as making more money...we all make what we can...some more some less....come to my house and see what we survive on...Here is a beer my friend....I share what I have with all.....

[Unregistered]

Wow! 280 posts. Hang in there. I'm off to work. My boss doesn't allow personal use of the internet.

[MyParentsHouse]

hope the work day goes fast for you...

[EPete]

Is that beer offer open to everyone?!

Have good one myParents!

I'll probably not be back too often.

It's been fun, ya done good kido!

Pete (Formerly EvacPete)

[MyParentsHouse]

better too with all the stress in the family...for me it was an outlet and as well as a stress reliever. With young kids I can't necessarily help out at the Parkinsons(hence my late night unloading of food to help the Salvation Army) Mom and dad have learned alot from this forum too and it helps now with the insurance and so on...also brought into perspective the way others were feeling when either on alert or those who were here because they needed to vent or outlet feelings. Castanet did a good job when they set this up and I know I will be on alot less but my computer time is mostly night times and early mornings but I am lucky enought to jump on when I am doing my other work on here too with the other things I am involved in...

As far as beer for everyone...come on over we share what we have...not much but it is yours when you need one..WE are at the bottom of the hill not far from you, let me know on here if you are going to come over...just IM me and I can make sure there are cold ones in the fridge....Good Luck my friend.....See you at the party in the park...LOL

[Heard it before]

A question for all those folks with all those years of experience who always complain that fires are mismanaged - why are you not a fire boss / incident commander? Seems your talents are obviously being watsed.

For equipment operators - you guys are the backbone of the operation and have my admiration. Remember it is a huge area you are dealing with out there and sometimes equipment will sit idle in one area but be very active in another.

[Rorrie]

I must say I have REALLY enjoyed this thread! Wow! My hubby is one of those equipment operators and well they always seem to get forgotten. They don't mind that though, honestly!
Hubby prefers to be around the experienced loggers as well...(he's one), as they are always on the fire and have experience.....(none of this one or two day classes).
Thank-you so much for mentioning them! ;D

[who knows]

Don't get mad at the expression.

TOO MANY CHEIFS, NOT ENOUGH INDIANS.

Like it was stated before on this posting, let the beast die off and you will hear the tales and the advise etc. that all have from the front lines. Everybody will have an opinions

[tragicallyblonde]

my grandparents were loggers, my mom was driving a skidder at 13,and my Dad worked in logging in his much younger days. I was born in BC and have had the oppourtunity to live all over this province and most of Canada as well. No matter where you go, the heavy equipment operators and their machinery are an everyday occurance in our lives. We never stop to think of the jobs they perform in their day so may continue ours. From the smallest bobcat to the biggest D-9 cat, (and many more), we owe a debt of gratitude...I say "Thank You".

[Disappointed]

Guest-Heard said:

A question for all those folks with all those years of experience who always complain that fires are mismanaged - why are you not a fire boss / incident commander? Seems your talents are obviously being watsed.

TEXT- YES! They are. Often the operators are the owners, and often of more than one piece of equipment. They work for a living. They make more money and have more experience, but the "Forestry" gets to run the show. They have the right "education" and work under the right "umbrella". Too often these guys know the theory, but not the practice. Sometimes, rather than listen to the experience of an operator, pride forces them to make their own call.

I grew up in a logging family and get my info from the front lines, not the TV. I also have two degrees. I met more dumbasses in university, and conversely met many wise dropouts in the logging industry.

I also had family in the canyon where pieces were lost. They were lucky no lives were lost. They never should have been in a canyon to begin with. It is frustrating for me that most who criticize are crackpots, and the rest are ignored. How dare we poiont fingers at heroes?

Don't get me wrong, I know everybody is trying their best, but I feel that the media has tilted the picture of what is happening, and that the hero worship has gotten a bit goofy.

Airplanes and mop-up crews are easier to film than a cat on the front lines. It is a shame. I know the loggers wouldn't want the hero worship either, but I think they deserve to be mentioned in proportion to their effort.