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Post by staging observer on Sept 20, 2003 14:00:08 GMT -5
Good Morning everyone. Well done Rick, I hope anyone that was not there as in close to a fire or at a staging area will please not comment Every night, I talked to a heavy machine operator I was in awe of what he had accomplished that day.(which was 5a.m.- 8p.m.) Alot of their efforts were thwarted by the demon fire. were they paid...YES. were they thanked....NO are they criticized....YES I know for a fact that heavy equipment was not sitting idle at Ricks Staging..However I know that heli-copters were paid very, very well for taxi services between Westbank and the staging area. Yes, they were needed for fire sups., to make very important decisions on fighting this demon fire.. air patrol was needed... To the machine operators and the fire fighters on the ground their defeats were like being beaten in a war...and I know they felt that way...this was not a known enemy , even so called fire experts were wrong and should have left in defeat. Having said my piece I will say one thing . Good work frie fighters(not firemen) Good work machine operators...........
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Post by Disappointed on Sept 21, 2003 10:54:05 GMT -5
I know for a fact that heavy equipment was not sitting idle at Ricks Staging You are right, very little equipment was sitting there. But the day I visited Rick's Staging, I next went to a gravel pit below the Myra Canyon Forest Service Road. There were 4 Cats and an Excavator just sitting there. The operators were sitting idle at Rick's staging. I don't understand why someone would criticize the operators. They aren't the ones deciding where they go. That is all MOF. As for the helicopters being paid well.... I wonder how many of those flights were really needed? I admit, I don't know that end of the operation, but it did seem like a bit of overkill. (That is, the choppers with admin people, not the choppers with buckets!) On a realted topic, people should give up questioning the use of the Mars bomber. I too was wondering why it wasn't here earlier, but then I watched it run with the yellow bombers. The Mars looked quite ineffective. The yellow guys ran 3-4 cycles for every one of the Mars and they were much more agile. I don't doubt they more effective. Let's give credit where credit is due, they might have made the right call with the Mars. The problem wasn't in the air. Even the MOF is screaming that now. They are defending the Mars attacks by stressing the fact that the AIR crews support the GROUND crews, not the other way around. This should lead into the next logical questions- about the use of ground crews. Why weren't we building guards around Kelowna 2-3 days earlier? I know it might not have held, but maybe it would have held in enough places. Instead of the MOF hitting it on its head, pull back and dig in. Kelowna would have had a massive "ring" scar that community groups could have gone out and replanted, or maybe turned into a linear park. It would have looked a lot nicer than the blackened fireplaces I've seen rising from concrete pits. Maybe it was a legitimate mistake and poor judgement, but why didn't we learn from that? Why did the MOF not get aggressive in the 3-4 days we had of excellent conditions before we lost the trestles? How many times do you have to fail before you learn from it? The machines they had on standby, if they weren't needed at the head of the fire, have them building a back up guard near the trestles. I hate it when people say "The canyon terrain is too rugged for machines." Duh! So why did you wait until the fire was there? From the trestles, walk back towards the fire and build guard in the first available terrain. For about 4 days before the fire got to the trestles, about 20 buldozers sat, getting paid half rate. Why didn't we invest the other half of the rate and save the trestles?
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Sept 21, 2003 12:52:31 GMT -5
Hi Disappointed,
Don't let the MOF confuse you.
The problem wasn't up in the air... it was on the ground, however the problem on day one of this fire was that the air support wasn't committed in order to make a ground based attack possible.
In terms of Aerial firebreaks it’s all measured by litres of solution per square meter of fire line. The whole idea of hitting the fire with bombers is to keep the flame length (fire intensity) down and prevent the fire from “running”. While the Mars may have looked slow compared to the CL 215 and CL 415 it does pack a bigger load.
CL 215 - 5348 litres CL 415 - 6130 litres MARS -27,240 litres
In your own observation, “The yellow guys ran 3-4 cycles for every one of the Mars and they were much more agile,” and even if they did do 4 trips for every Mars trip, the Mars (travelling slower) drops more litres/meter on the firebreak.
Now the kicker… there was days on this fire when the bombers were useless. There hits a point in the fire intensity when no amount of water dropped from the air is going to form an effective fire break and we certainly saw many days like that on the OMP fire.
Again in your words, “This should lead into the next logical questions- about the use of ground crews. Why weren't we building guards around Kelowna 2-3 days earlier?” Well it seems to me they were building a cat guard around Kelowna, didn’t they do a line 17 kms long and 50 meters wide, only to have the fire jump it while back burning?
Fighting a forest fire requires an integrated attack using both aerial and ground based fire suppression resources. The Mars wouldn’t have stopped this fire, however the timely use of the Mars on day one may have prevented the fire from running and may have given the ground crews the opportunity to hold the fire back at squally point.
To the mess that happened at Bellevue creek… I’ve already stated my opinion on what happened and how the KVR trestles were taken out on another thread and I agree whole-heartedly with your summation. “How many times do you have to fail before you learn from it?” More important than that is why would MOF try to cover up their mistakes with statements suggesting a gust of wind did it? If the MOF is going to retain the lead role in these urban interface conflagrations, they are going to have to work a lot harder at maintaining the public’s confidence.
“This was our objective and this is how we failed.” A simple statement like that builds public trust and the acknowledgement of the shortcomings serves to reassure the public that the organization will look at things differently next time.
In the words of the Ombudsman, after the Salmon Arm interface fire of 1998:
…”in the opinion of the Ombudsman, it is crucial for the MOF to provide those people in communities who are directly affected by a wildfire threat with an explanation of the reasons for making decisions as the firefighting efforts are unfolding”.
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Post by FF1 on Sept 21, 2003 13:19:04 GMT -5
The Salmon Arm fire was too much. The Barriere fire was way too much. The OMP fire management is more than enough incompetance. It has to stop. Now. Drip what were they using for indicies on Aug.16?
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Post by Who Knows on Sept 21, 2003 23:31:04 GMT -5
Disappointed,
What day were you at Rick's. This is from someone that knows that there was not a day that went by that the guys there were idle. I have pic's of when the operators as well of ground crew were evac. out of the bush. I will figure out how to download these. You are way out of line. I will defend Rick in that area till I turn blue in the face. I talked daily with the one's up there and have a picture of the defeat of one of the army guys when a fire guard jumped. These and all these people in the area never stood idle. Think again about when. Don't even go there. Rick's crew did everything in that area. The tressels may not have been saved there Drip.... But the houses that are at the top of June Springs Road were. Isn't that just a little more important. All I hear about is the tressels.. The people up there have their houses. Doesn't that count for something. But maybe not in your eyes. I'm talking about June Springs area not any other.
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Post by Hi Who Knows on Sept 22, 2003 3:30:28 GMT -5
Could you send me a message, would like to talk to you off board (reg email) looking for info for new site. Thanks
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Post by Ely on Sept 22, 2003 3:35:21 GMT -5
Argg, screwed up that last post big time, thought I was logged on, should have been;
Hi Who knows,
Must be gerring late,,,
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Post by Brandy on Sept 22, 2003 9:26:56 GMT -5
I was told it was Pat Lawrence's logging outfit that sat Idle from Aug 20-22 (3 days) and that Pat was ticked off and went to Bill Lawrence Friday night of the inferno to build a fire guard on PRIVATE land (without involving the MOF) around Black Mtn. Just to clarify that not ALL heavy equipment was being utilized prior to the inferno (Pat brought in every size of cat plus feller bunchers,) and you are right, they should never sit idle at any time. There is always something to be done.
The only thing that saved East Kelowna and Joe Riche from the same devastation is RAIN!!
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Post by Disappointed on Sept 23, 2003 1:08:07 GMT -5
Disappointed, You are way out of line. I will defend Rick in that area till I turn blue in the face. I talked daily with the one's up there and have a picture of the defeat of one of the army guys when a fire guard jumped. These and all these people in the area never stood idle. Think again about when. Don't even go there. Rick's crew did everything in that area. If you are making reference to Rick's fire crew, the one he was in charge of, you may be right. I don't know what that specific crew were doing, and if you were there all the time, you would know better than I. I am certainly not claiming that Rick's crew made mistakes. But there were other resources working out of Rick's staging. My beef is with the MOF application of heavy equipment. The point that most equipment at Rick's was working is well taken. Equipment sent up from the Gordon staging area was sent to work. Some of it did sit idle though. You asked which day I was there. Admittedly, it was on the weekend after the loss of the trestles, everybody was starting to stand down. But the fire was still going, Mars & co. were still flying airshows and equipment sat, while the operators waited at Ricks. Still, that probably wasn't the best day to illustrate my point. Maybe I misstated my point, but I doubt I am out of line. My father owns one of the companies with many pieces of heavy equipment on the fire. I know the operators fairly well. My information is not gathered from the rumor mill, but from those who were there. My point remains that these pieces of equipment and most others were NOT working for days before the fire reared up again and took the trestles. Most of them were sitting at the Gordon staging area. The cats were not pushing dirt! I agree that all the guys working on the lines were devastated when the guards failed. More importantly, they were frustrated that they were sent in too late. Equipment was not put into action until the fire was upon us. The MOF knew enough to place it all on standby for a few days before it got to Kelowna. By that time they already knew it was a tough fire and it was on its way. After the catastrophe that cost homes and 3 pieces of equipment, they repeated that mistake again and waited for the fire to go to the KVR. I sincerely am grateful for the efforts of all people who worked this fire. I don't believe anybody purposefully let the fire go. But if we can't question how we used our resources and learn from this, how are we going to prevent it from happening next summer? If my house is in the path next summer, I want those fighting the fire to have new ideas. We would look like idiots if we repeated this dance over and over. Especially when it costs so much to fight, nevermind in suffering, displacement, history, economy , health and environment. I hope that any informed questions are not out of line. We don't need a witch hunt, but we need answers and some changes.
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