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Post by Who Knows on Sept 9, 2003 11:02:37 GMT -5
I have to totally agree with you about the MOF with the long line of red tape that they have. I know of someone that has been shoved more of the red tape and finally said forget it. I do understand where you are coming from. I may not have degrees but my family has also been brought up in the forestry life (the little stamp that used to show on cheques of where the monies where made and how they are getting paid). I have heard the complaints that have gone through the forums. Like I said previously this will all be told in the end. We will get all kinds of opinions, but unfortunantly the only ones that will be heard of that of the gov't. If your family thinks that this has not been managed well, make sure that you make it be heard. Not only know that this counts but later. If you have a strong backgound in this area make sure you file the reports and stay on top of it. Maybe someday this would make a difference. If ever you need help on this issue I would be there for you.
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Sept 9, 2003 12:23:54 GMT -5
Someone once said "An auditor is someone who goes in after the battle and stabs all the wounded." A lot of this stuff will come out in the wash, people will be critical of actions, lawsuits will ensue. I'm a firm believer in accountablilty, esp. when they are spending millions per day. My point: Everyone is human and they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. And there will be extensive reviews. Anyone with an opinion will simply be washed out as the operations scale back, there will be no lawsuit and no one will ever be held accountable. As for the extensive review... change a few names, change the dates and the review will look like this, www.ombd.gov.bc.ca/publications/reports/Public_Reports/PR39_SC_Fire/Report_toc.html ... almost verbatim. To the millions of dollars per day spent, I’ll say this, as of September 3, 2003. 230,080 hectares had burnt and we’ve spent $262,011,626 on suppression. Our average cost per hectare is $1138.78. Our ten-year average to that date would be $ 2184.17. How are we saving all that money? Could it be we’re sending 3 guys and two helicopters to lightening strikes that need 2 unit crews, two water bombers and two helicopters? Are we dropping water in places that we should be dropping long term retardant? Then you could take a good look at how we’re spending the money… Is it really more efficient to train a firefighter in Ontario and then put him on a plane and fly him to the coast? How many dollar bills did we drop from the sky just to give the public the impression that we were doing something? The OMP fire shouldn’t surprise anyone… we all knew it would eventually happen and we’re all thankful no-ones been seriously hurt. Can the FS get over itself enough to take advantage of the opportunity that present’s itself here? I’m having my doubts… OMP has presented the quintessential “teachable moment” in fire-ecology. Yes, we will have our questions, debates and differences, for instance, about natural fire regimens, pre Euro-settlement conditions or prevention vs. suppression. And yes, some people still won’t listen, but the bottom-line is we’re all in this together. What's needed here is a case study into the OMP incident. www.fs.fed.us/rm/hayman_fire ...for an example of what I'm talking about.
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Post by FF on Sept 9, 2003 13:13:05 GMT -5
Quite often there is a need to keep heavy equipment on standby in case it is needed at short notice. The backburns may/may not have been necessary. But using water for initial attack is just plain negligance. Good people have died making the air tanker program in B.C. the best in the world until this New Era of Fire Managers came along. We NEVER use water for initial attack, the main reason: water doesn't work, it doesn't do the job. This has been proven for over 30 years in B.C. This is not Ontario or Quebec, Terrain, timber types, weather patterns, are substantially different. B.C. has always had a great record for satety, keep it up. My sources say they have burned too many bridges from the past to get away with this in 2003!
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Post by FF on Sept 9, 2003 13:35:35 GMT -5
I was refering to the Heartland of B.C. I realize they use the Martin Mars for initial attack in the 604 telephone exchange(where our taxes go), but I don't agree with that either. If the policy was Long Term Fire Retardant only for initial attack, the OMP fire could have been a none event in my opinion.
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cghzd
New Member
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Post by cghzd on Sept 10, 2003 16:37:15 GMT -5
I have heard at length stories from people on the front lines in Barriere and the okanogan fires. I myself was in downtown Barriere when it was suposed to have already been burned out acording to a Kamloops radio station. The forestry guys had left town and the only people I saw were local volinteer fire fighters, a couple of women who were looking for thier husbands that were chasing some cattle,two RCMP and the workers at the sawmill who stayed behind and saved thier mill. To make a long story short, this whole situation could have been prevented if these fires were hit hard at the beginning. My sense is that the mof was trying to save money at the direction of their masters in Victoria. A few bucs spent at the start would sure have prevented a lot of misery. The fighting of these fires has been a "gong show". I hope the media will go to the people that are and were on the front lines. I could go on but I'll save it for another day. This ain't over yet !
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Post by Brandy on Sept 11, 2003 10:38:57 GMT -5
I heard the same story. That a logging company was brought in on Wed. before the fire storm and was sitting idle on Chute lake road for 3 days. Yet still being paid for it. The company was totally ticked as they were not being utilized to help with the fire. The forestry had NO CLUE what they wanted this company to do as far as helping with the fire. By Friday night they still were NOT allowed to aid in the fire so they told their story to a local contracting company who then went ahead and privately built a fire guard from the Rodeo grounds in Black Mtn. to the canyon using private land. YEAH!! someone knows how to make decisions at least!!!!
I also have heard many other stories that make my head spin.
Supposedly a person building a subdivision in Naramata went up to the fire on Sunday evening Aug. 17, 2 days after the initial fire started and overheard a forester say to his men " Well lets go, this fire will put itself out" SAY WHAT!!!! Where do these guys get educated. I personally have more common sense than that and I have NO fire training. These people are supposed to be experts???
The Crawford estates fire supposedly was started by a backburn gone sour. I guess the winds picked up and the backburn got out of hand and burnt 68 homes in Crawford. HOW SICK!!! Who is responsible for lighting a backburn in tinder dry conditions so close to a residential area???Where is the common sense???
I also heard the the flare up last Wed. eve Sept 3 was a poor mixture of fuel used to light a backburn and thus started a flare up and ended up burning the KVR trestles on Thursday. Who makes these decisions???The forestry???
I heard there were men from the army that were too overweight and caused concerns for the firefighters that they may not be able to outrun a firestorm should another one come through. These men were also to weak to hold a fire hose thus were given garden hoses and used to mop up hot spots, yet our strong loggers were NOT allowed to help as they are supposedly not fully trained. (2 weeks for the loggers vs. 3 days for the army) PATHETIC!!!!
Has anyone else heard these horror stories or any others???
I am also ticked at the media especially CKOV 63 for NOT keeping their open line going after the last evacuation of Gallaghers and Joe Riche. It seems fishy that the open line was on 24/7 when Lakeshore and Crawford were evacuated yet when the SE section of Kelowna is evacuated they didn't seem to care. I feel these people had a much right as the others for an open line 24/7 so they too could call in for stats on the fire or just to tell stories or vent. Pretty sad in my books.
So my beef is with the forestry bigwigs that are NOT able to make decisions and when they did make them they were not very wise!!!! I feel these bigwigs should be laid off and then sued by the homeowners for pretending to have the knowledge to fight a fire.
For the record NONE of this info comes from the media!!! Gee I wonder why?
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Post by Who Knows on Sept 11, 2003 12:15:23 GMT -5
Some of your statement I agree, but it is not only the big wigs. It is the long, long arm of the red tape. They have had to go through to many channels to even get one piece of machinery moving. These are facts not from the media as well. One thing I would like to state is the backburn of Sept. 3 with this happening it was actually a hot spot that flared up. Get this fact straight. The winds and the fire started it. Then if you were paying attention the fire does create it's own wind and it just started all over again. The Forestry did what it could with the amount of f$#king paper work that the gov't puts forth. This should be dealt with. The people that are put in charge should have the ability to order or get what ever done that deems nessicary. Deal with the gov't, the forestry is within the gov't. They are just following the ropes that have been set in place.
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Post by disappointed on Sept 13, 2003 11:54:20 GMT -5
I don't believe it can all be reduced to red tape. There is a great deal of elitism that works into the mix. The forestry bosses seem to have bought into the concept that education equals wisdom. This prevents them from working WITH the contractors and equipment operators.
The latest I have heard is that the MOF is now getting cheap with their rates. They are not paying ripper rate for the Cats. If you hire a machine, and it has a ripper- PAY THE RATE! It seems they have no problem spending millions on the suppresion that gets the public eye. One might be led to believe that this is a case of a ministry filled with people who are eager to demonstrate how necessary they are; an attempt to prevent more gov't cuts.
This isn't to say the entire MOF is redundant or not trying to do their jobs, but It just seems to be another example of poor appreciation for those on the front lines in equipment.
I remain really disappointed by the media for their coverage. They would have the country believing that all the city crews and military under Gerry Zimmerman put out the fire, (aided by planes and helicopters). The city crews did an amazing job when called upon, but there were others, IN the fire, before, during and after the fire brushed up against the city.
I heard an interview on CBC radio with some of the firefighters in the Kettle Valley subdivision. I was torn because on one hand, they did a great job. On the the other hand, they talk about going back to the fire station for "rehab", where the whole community is bringing anything they can carry as offerings. The equipment operators go back to a dusty staging area, to adequate bins of sandwiches and pop- which they are grateful for.
I wish the media were a little more investigative. Instead they hover around Kevin Matuga types waiting for scraps of information.
As for the mistakes, and the misuse of equipment (building guards in the wrong areas, needlessly putting lives at risk and not building guards when they had the opportunity to do so) I hope it comes out and hard questions are asked, but I have little faith that anything will change. Bureaucracies in any industry act this way. Unfortunately this time, instead of simply causing annoyance, it cost our community in terms of homes and heritage.
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Post by tragicallyblonde on Sept 15, 2003 3:21:24 GMT -5
DRIP..PLEASE RUN IN NEXT ELECTION>>>>You make life interesting, vital, and intriguing...Well read, well bred..
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Sept 16, 2003 11:13:18 GMT -5
Awgh... now your making me blush and get all flustered.
;D
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Post by PC on Sept 18, 2003 14:14:57 GMT -5
Of course nothing will change,
Look at the industry that is making all the money. The aircraft and fire suppression equipment/supply industry. Water Bombers, Martin Mars, Helicopters, Retardent, Dozers, etc.... All useless against the forces of nature.
But what you will hear is just one more tanker drop, if you had only hired my dozer, you should have hired my helicopter, I could have put it out with one load of retardant when it was just a camp fire.
All lies, arrogance and buisiness.
The fire suppression industry has been built on fear mongering. They have lobbied politicians and the public for more, more, more. And it hasn't worked. But the answer has always been just a little bit more $$$$$$ and we can stop the forest from burning.
Fire is an ecological fact of life, deal with it. We could shut down all of our schools, hospitals, highways, etc, etc., pour all of the tax dollars into fire suppression and the forest would still burn during the cyclic hot, dry, windy conditions.
Anyone who tells you that they can stop the forest from burning is an arrogant liar, pure and simple.
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Post by Drip torch in the woods on Sept 19, 2003 3:24:10 GMT -5
Of course nothing will change, Look at the industry that is making all the money. The aircraft and fire suppression equipment/supply industry. Water Bombers, Martin Mars, Helicopters, Retardent, Dozers, etc.... All useless against the forces of nature. But what you will hear is just one more tanker drop, if you had only hired my dozer, you should have hired my helicopter, I could have put it out with one load of retardant when it was just a camp fire. All lies, arrogance and buisiness. The fire suppression industry has been built on fear mongering. They have lobbied politicians and the public for more, more, more. And it hasn't worked. But the answer has always been just a little bit more $$$$$$ and we can stop the forest from burning. Fire is an ecological fact of life, deal with it. We could shut down all of our schools, hospitals, highways, etc, etc., pour all of the tax dollars into fire suppression and the forest would still burn during the cyclic hot, dry, windy conditions. Anyone who tells you that they can stop the forest from burning is an arrogant liar, pure and simple. >"Look at the industry that is making all the money. The aircraft and fire suppression equipment/supply industry. Water Bombers, Martin Mars, Helicopters, Retardent, Dozers, etc.... All useless against the forces of nature." >>> Well yeah, that's the whole point of discussing it in the coffee shop, on the news media, in the paper and on this board. Literally we are looking at the industry that is making all the money... >"But what you will hear is just one more tanker drop, if you had only hired my dozer, you should have hired my helicopter, I could have put it out with one load of retardant when it was just a camp fire." >>> Hmm... Haven’t heard the "one more load" theory yet, but I'll keep my ear open for it. >"The fire suppression industry has been built on fear mongering." >>>I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but over 230 homes were burnt in Kelowna alone this year. Again in Kelowna alone, over 30,000 people had their lives disrupted. "Fear mongering"... hardly, I think that qualifies as a local disaster. >"Anyone who tells you that they can stop the forest from burning is an arrogant liar, pure and simple." >>>You might want to check your facts on that bold statement. As bad as things were, there was only 1 Kelowna, 1 Kamloops, 1 Chase, 1 Cranbrook and about 2400 other fires that were stopped. Oh crap I guess in your "pure and simple" terms, I'm an "arrogant liar" now. >"Fire is an ecological fact of life, deal with it." ...And that my man, is what this board is all about.
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Post by FFNo1 on Sept 19, 2003 10:38:49 GMT -5
The status quo here is not an option. The expectation to contain 90% of the fires in the first burning period is to leave some room for letting fires go in the backcountry. Get it the backcountry, not downtown Kelowna and Barriere. This is not a good enough expectation for the cost/risk involved here. The real gougers here are the ones who charge us double time to sit in air-conditioned rooms looking at computers. How much overtime for the OMP fire, without hiding the cost in some other account? These people are paid to do a job in fire season, not afterwards. Please spare us the Powerpoint excuses and use our money to plant a few more trees. No one can blame you for trying to keep your jobs but it isn't cost effective. After Barriere, there is NO excuse for the OMP fire. We can't wait until after fire season to react. And does setting the bar too low(90%) really make you feel better?
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Post by Who Knows on Sept 19, 2003 22:45:16 GMT -5
Here we go. Just wait for what is coming next. Did any of you watch the news. As I understand if there is any operators or any people that think that there was not enough action. Talk to the person on the TV. The guy that was on is in charge of the June Springs staging area.
Good luck to all. The worms are open and it took one man to say it publicaly with his name on it. This man is one hell of a guy..
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Post by Dissapointed on Sept 20, 2003 9:44:09 GMT -5
It is great that he is speaking out. But, is this a matter of him being one hell of a guy, or of the media following the "biggest" story? The media was waist deep in the hero worship while the fire was going on. They sent few (1?) reporters to the equipment staging areas, and when they did, they didn't ask any questions. Had they been investigating, they might have found some interesting facts. They might have reported the following: 1. Heavy Equipment was on standby for days before the fire got to Kelowna. Tax dollars were paying half rate, but not one guard was built. Can we really buy the claim that "nobody knew it would come this far?" We all watched it race up the valley. Every night I would take pictures, then ask a contractor if his equipment was working yet. The answer was no. 2. Once the MOF assembled the equipment, it rarely left the staging areas (sent to build fire guard) until 2pm. (the MOF itself claims the most productive hours for forest fighting are BEFORE 2pm! Do they not read their own publications?) 3. The equipment (all are equiped with lights) often worked late, but the MOF rarely worked a nightshift. A few times they would call for it. Contractors would then call out operators. These men would arrive for a 12 hour night shift, only to be sent home because the MOF had changed its mind. Often fires are fought with two 12 hour shifts. 4. The days between the firestorm and the destruction of the trestles, I watched MOF report the number of pieces of heavy equipment they had "working the fire". The number was usually 190-200. I then learned that almost ALL of those pieces were sitting idle in the staging areas. They maybe had a grader maintaining roads so trucks could refill helicopter resevoirs with retardant. An army of bulldozers sat idle until the very night the fire woke up again. The machines were sent in for a very short time until they had to be pulled back, because now it was too dangerous. They had four days of inactivity when they could have been building guard between the fire and the trestles. The land was workable. Of course they couldn't do anything once the fire was in the canyon. 5. While all of this was going on, the Kelowna Fire Department was getting massages, palletes of beer and food from various establishments in town. The operators at the Gordon Rd Staging area ate from a bin of sandwiches from the food bank. Many of these guys were the same ones who were trapped in the canyon when 3 peices were lost.
I'm glad the media finally picked up on some questions about the fire. Yes, this Rick is one hell of a guy. We should all be ashamed for eating up the "red overall-hero worship". The media should be more ashamed for feeding it to us.
For those who post replies trying to discourage anyone who would question how this fire was fought, I want to ask- How desperate are you for a hero? How blind do you want to be? At what cost? Just because someone is a "Professional" (and that term has been over-used and used loosely!) doesn't mean the organization is faultless. If you want a hero, a role model for your kids, I hope you took them to the Terry Fox Run.
In the mean time, I want to hear more stories from people who were there. I want the media to INVESTIGATE. I don't want to simply tear people down or be an armchair firefighter, I want to know why some decissions were made and I want answers that go beyond, "We are professionals and we consider an number of factors before making those decissions. It was an explosive situation." Give me a break! That is a non answer! I am no longer disappointed, I'm disgusted.
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